gorgias-第2章

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which　the　singers　enumerate　the　goods　of　life；　first　health；　beauty　next；　thirdly；　as　the　writer　of　the　song　says；　wealth　honesty　obtained。　　　Gor。　Yes；　I　know　the　song；　but　what　is　your　drift？　　　Soc。　I　mean　to　say；　that　the　producers　of　those　things　which　the　author　of　the　song　praises；　that　is　to　say；　the　physician；　the　trainer；　the　money…maker；　will　at　once　come　to　you；　and　first　the　physician　will　say：　〃O　Socrates；　Gorgias　is　deceiving　you；　for　my　art　is　concerned　with　the　greatest　good　of　men　and　not　his。〃　And　when　I　ask；　Who　are　you？　he　will　reply；　〃I　am　a　physician。〃　What　do　you　mean？　I　shall　say。　Do　you　mean　that　your　art　produces　the　greatest　good？　〃Certainly；〃　he　will　answer；　〃for　is　not　health　the　greatest　good？　What　greater　good　can　men　have；　Socrates？〃　And　after　him　the　trainer　will　come　and　say；　〃I　too；　Socrates；　shall　be　greatly　surprised　if　Gorgias　can　show　more　good　of　his　art　than　I　can　show　of　mine。〃　To　him　again　I　shall　say；　Who　are　you；　honest　friend；　and　what　is　your　business？　〃I　am　a　trainer；〃　he　will　reply；　〃and　my　business　is　to　make　men　beautiful　and　strong　in　body。〃　When　I　have　done　with　the　trainer；　there　arrives　the　money…maker；　and　he；　as　I　expect；　utterly　despise　them　all。　〃Consider　Socrates；〃　he　will　say；　〃whether　Gorgias　or　any　one…else　can　produce　any　greater　good　than　wealth。〃　Well；　you　and　I　say　to　him；　and　are　you　a　creator　of　wealth？　〃Yes；〃　he　replies。　And　who　are　you？　〃A　money…maker。〃　And　do　you　consider　wealth　to　be　the　greatest　good　of　man？　〃Of　course；〃　will　be　his　reply。　And　we　shall　rejoin：　Yes；　but　our　friend　Gorgias　contends　that　his　art　produces　a　greater　good　than　yours。　And　then　he　will　be　sure　to　go　on　and　ask；　〃What　good？　Let　Gorgias　answer。〃　Now　I　want　you；　Gorgias；　to　imagine　that　this　question　is　asked　of　you　by　them　and　by　me；　What　is　that　which；　as　you　say；　is　the　greatest　good　of　man；　and　of　which　you　are　the　creator？　Answer　us。　　　Gor。　That　good；　Socrates；　which　is　truly　the　greatest；　being　that　which　gives　to　men　freedom　in　their　own　persons；　and　to　individuals　the　power　of　ruling　over　others　in　their　several　states。　　　Soc。　And　what　would　you　consider　this　to　be？　　　Gor。　What　is　there　greater　than　the　word　which　persuades　the　judges　in　the　courts；　or　the　senators　in　the　council；　or　the　citizens　in　the　assembly；　or　at　any　other　political　meeting？…if　you　have　the　power　of　uttering　this　word；　you　will　have　the　physician　your　slave；　and　the　trainer　your　slave；　and　the　money…maker　of　whom　you　talk　will　be　found　to　gather　treasures；　not　for　himself；　but　for　you　who　are　able　to　speak　and　to　persuade　the　multitude。　　　Soc。　Now　I　think；　Gorgias；　that　you　have　very　accurately　explained　what　you　conceive　to　be　the　art　of　rhetoric；　and　you　mean　to　say；　if　I　am　not　mistaken；　that　rhetoric　is　the　artificer　of　persuasion；　having　this　and　no　other　business；　and　that　this　is　her　crown　and　end。　Do　you　know　any　other　effect　of　rhetoric　over　and　above　that　of　producing　persuasion？　　　Gor。　No：　the　definition　seems　to　me　very　fair；　Socrates；　for　persuasion　is　the　chief　end　of　rhetoric。　　　Soc。　Then　hear　me；　Gorgias；　for　I　am　quite　sure　that　if　there　ever　was　a　man　who…entered　on　the　discussion　of　a　matter　from　a　pure　love　of　knowing　the　truth；　I　am　such　a　one；　and　I　should　say　the　same　of　you。　　　Gor。　What　is　coming；　Socrates？　　　Soc。　I　will　tell　you：　I　am　very　well　aware　that　do　not　know　what；　according　to　you；　is　the　exact　nature；　or　what　are　the　topics　of　that　persuasion　of　which　you　speak；　and　which　is　given　by　rhetoric；　although　I　have　a　suspicion　about　both　the　one　and　the　other。　And　I　am　going　to　ask…what　is　this　power　of　persuasion　which　is　given　by　rhetoric；　and　about　what？　But　why；　if　I　have　a　suspicion；　do　I　ask　instead　of　telling　you？　Not　for　your　sake；　but　in　order　that　the　argument　may　proceed　in　such　a　manner　as　is　most　likely　to　set　forth　the　truth。　And　I　would　have　you　observe；　that　I　am　right　in　asking　this　further　question：　If　I　asked；　〃What　sort　of　a　painter　is　Zeuxis？〃　and　you　said；　〃The　painter　of　figures；〃　should　I　not　be　right　in　asking；　What　kind　of　figures；　and　where　do　you　find　them？〃　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　the　reason　for　asking　this　second　question　would　be；　that　there　are　other　painters　besides；　who　paint　many　other　figures？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　But　if　there　had　been　no　one　but　Zeuxis　who　painted　them；　then　you　would　have　answered　very　well？　　　Gor。　Quite　so。　　　Soc。　Now　I　was　it　to　know　about　rhetoric　in　the　same　way；…is　rhetoric　the　only　art　which　brings　persuasion；　or　do　other　arts　have　the　same　effect？　I　mean　to　say…Does　he　who　teaches　anything　persuade　men　of　that　which　he　teaches　or　not？　　　Gor。　He　persuades；　Socrates；…there　can　be　no　mistake　about　that。　　　Soc。　Again；　if　we　take　the　arts　of　which　we　were　just　now　speaking：…do　not　arithmetic　and　the　arithmeticians　teach　us　the　properties　of　number？　　　Gor。　Certainly。　　　Soc。　And　therefore　persuade　us　of　them？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Then　arithmetic　as　well　as　rhetoric　is　an　artificer　of　persuasion？　　　Gor。　Clearly。　　　Soc。　And　if　any　one　asks　us　what　sort　of　persuasion；　and　about　what；…we　shall　answer；　persuasion　which　teaches　the　quantity　of　odd　and　even；　and　we　shall　be　able　to　show　that　all　the　other　arts　of　which　we　were　just　now　speaking　are　artificers　of　persuasion；　and　of　what　sort；　and　about　what。　　　Gor。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　Then　rhetoric　is　not　the　only　artificer　of　persuasion？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　Seeing；　then；　that　not　only　rhetoric　works　by　persuasion；　but　that　other　arts　do　the　same；　as　in　the　case　of　the　painter；　a　question　has　arisen　which　is　a　very　fair　one：　Of　what　persuasion　is　rhetoric　the　artificer；　and　about　what？…is　not　that　a　fair　way　of　putting　the　question？　　　Gor。　I　think　so。　　　Soc。　Then；　if　you　approve　the　question；　Gorgias；　what　is　the　answer？　　　Gor。　I　answer；　Socrates；　that　rhetoric　is　the　art　of　persuasion　in　courts　of　law　and　other　assemblies；　as　I　was　just　now　saying；　and　about　the　just　and　unjust。　　　Soc。　And　that；　Gorgias；　was　what　I　was　suspecting　to　be　your　notion；　yet　I　would　not　have　you　wonder　if　by…and…by　I　am　found　repeating　a　seemingly　plain　question；　for　I　ask　not　in　order　to　confute　you；　but　as　I　was　saying　that　the　argument　may　proceed　consecutively；　and　that　we　may　not　get　the　habit　of　anticipating　and　suspecting　the　meaning　of　one　another's　words；　I　would　have　you　develop　your　own　views　in　your　own　way；　whatever　may　be　your　hypothesis。　　　Gor。　I　think　that　you　are　quite　right；　Socrates。　　　Soc。　Then　let　me　raise　another　question；　there　is　such　a　thing　as　〃having　learned〃？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　there　is　also　〃having　believed〃？　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　And　is　the　〃having　learned〃　the　same　〃having　believed；〃　and　are　learning　and　belief　the　same　things？　　　Gor。　In　my　judgment；　Socrates；　they　are　not　the　same。　　　Soc。　And　your　judgment　is　right；　as　you　may　ascertain　in　this　way：…If　a　person　were　to　say　to　you；　〃Is　there；　Gorgias；　a　false　belief　as　well　as　a　true？〃　…you　would　reply；　if　I　am　not　mistaken；　that　there　is。　　　Gor。　Yes。　　　Soc。　Well；　but　is　there　a　false　knowledge　as　well　as　a　true？　　　Gor。　No。　　　Soc。　No；　indeed；　and　this　again　proves　that　knowledge　and　belief　differ。　　　Gor。　Very　true。　　　Soc。　And　yet　those　who　have　learned　as　well　as　those　who　have　believed　are　persuaded？　　　Gor。　Just　so。　　　Soc。　Shall　we　then　assume　two　sorts　of　persuasion；…one　which　is　the　source　of　belief　without　knowledge；　as　the　other　is　of　knowledge？　　　Gor。　By　all　means。　　　Soc。　And　which　sort　of　persuasion　does　rhetoric　create　in　courts　of　law　and　other　assemblies　about　the　just　and　unjust；　the　sort　of　persuasion　which　gives　belief　without　knowledge；　or　that　which　gives　knowledge？　　　Gor。　Clearly；　Socrates；　that　which　only　gives　belief。　　　Soc。　Then　rhetoric；　as　would　appear；　is　the　artificer　of　a　persuasion　which　creates　belief　about　the　just　and　unjust；　but　gives　no　instruction　about　them？　　　Gor。　True。　　　Soc。　And　the　rhetorician　does　not　instruct　the　courts　of　law　or　other　assemblies　about　things　just　and　unjust；　but　he　creates　belief　about　them；　for　no　one　can　be　supposed　to　instruct　such　a　vast　multitude　about　such　high　matters　in　a　short　time？　　　Gor。　Certainly　not。　　　Soc。　Come；　then；　and　let　us　see　what　we　really　mean　about　rhetoric；　for　I　do　not　know　what　my　own　meaning　is　as　yet。　When　the　assembly　meets　to　elect　a　physician　or　a　shipwright　or　any　other　craftsman；　will　the　rhetorician　be　taken　into　counsel？　Surely　not。　For　at　every　election　he　ought　to　be　chosen　who　is　most　skilled；　and；　again；　when　walls　have　to　be　built　or　harbours　or　docks　to　be　constructed；　not　the　rhetorician　but　the　master　workman　will　advise；　or　when　generals　have　to　be　chosen　and　an　order　of　battle　arranged；　or　a　proposition　taken；　then　the　military　will　advise　and　not　the　rhetoricians：　what　do　you　say；　Gorgias？　Since　you　profess　to　be　a　rhetorician　and　a　maker　of　rhetoricians；　I　cannot　do　better　than　learn　the　nature　of　your　art　from　you。　And　here　let　me　assure　you　that　I　have　your　interest　in　view　as　well　as　my　own。　For　likely　enough　some　one　or　other　of　the　young　men　present　might　desire　to　become　your　pupil；　and　in　fact　I　see　some；　and　a　good　many　too；　who　have　this　wish；　but　they　would　be　too　modest　to　question　you。　And　therefore　when　you　are　interrogated　by　me；　I　would　have　you　imagine　that　you　are　interrogated　by　them。　〃What　is　the　use　of　coming　to　you；　Gorgias？　they　will　say　about　what　will　you　teach　us　to　advise　the　state？…about　the　just　and　unjust　only；　or　about　those　other　things　also　which　Socrates　has　just　mentioned？　How　will　you　answer　them？　　　Gor。　I　like　your　way　of　leading　us　on；　Socrates；　and　I　will　endeavour　to　reveal　to　you　the　whole　nature　of　rhetoric。　You　must　have　heard；　I　think；　that　the　docks　and　the　walls　of　the　Athenians　and　the　plan　of　the　harbour　were　devised　in　accordance　with　the　counsels；　partly　of　Themistocles；　and　partly　of　Pericles；　and　not　at　the　suggestion　of　the　builders。　　　Soc。　Such　is　the　tradition；　Gorgias；　about　Themistocles；　and　I　myself　heard　the　speech　of　Pericles　when　he　advised　us　about　the　middle　wall。　　　Gor。　And　you　will　observe；　Socrates；　that　when　a　decision　has　to　be　given　in　such　matters　the　rhetoricians　are　the　advisers；　they　are　the　men　who　win　their　point。　　　Soc。　I　had　that　in　my　admiring　mind；　Gorgias；　when　I　asked　what　is　the　nature　of　rhetoric；　which　always　appears　to　me；　when　I　look　at　the　matter　in　this　way；　to　be　a　marvel　of　greatness。　　　Gor。　A　marvel；　indeed；　Socrates；　if　you　only　knew　how　rhetoric　comprehends　and　holds　under　her　sway　all　the　inferior　arts。　Let　me　offer　you　a　striking　example　of　this。　On　several　occasions　I　have　been　with　my　brother　Herodicus　or　some　other　physician　to　see　one　of　his　patients；　who　would　not　allow　the　physician　to　give　him　medicine；　or　apply　a　knife　or　hot　iron　to　him；　and　I　have　persuaded　him　to　do　for　me　what　he　would　not　do　for　the　physician　just　by　the　use　of　rhetoric。　And　I　say　that　if　a　rhetorician　and　a　physician　were　to　go　to　any　city；　and　had　there　to　argue　in　the　Ecclesia　or　any　other　assembly　as　to　which　of　them　should　be　elected　state…physician；　the　physician　would　have　no　chance；　but　he　who　could　speak　would　be　chosen　if　he　wished；　and　in　a　contest　with　a　man　of　any　other　profession　the　rhetorician　more　than　any　one　would　have　the　power　of　getting　himself　chosen；　for　he　can　speak　more　persuasively　to　the　multitude　than　any　of　them；　and　on　any　subject。　S